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 Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?

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Mew Ami
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PostSubject: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Thu Jul 05, 2012 7:38 pm

Now a lot fans refer to Berri and Aoyama being mary sues. Heck some fans refer to Ichigo as a mary sure. But isn't a mary sue a character who was created for a fanfiction? Well, let's see:

Mary Sue:
According wikipedia, a mary sue is a character particularly in fanfiction with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfilment fantasy for the author or reader.

Canon Sue:
According to wikipeida, a canon sue is a canon character whose portray as a mary sue, rather than a character who has been altered in fan fiction. A character accused of being overly idealized or having other traits traditionally associated with fan fiction mary sues, by having a gratuitously tragic past, unrealistic skills or attractiveness, or a seeming inability for the character to do wrong.

So should they still be called mary sues then?

Well no. They should be referred as canon sues seeing how they are canon characters.

Okay so they're canon sues, but are they really canon sues?

Well, no. Let's discuss about Aoyama.

So he gets a lot hate because well for being a canon sue and for getting in the way of two other major pairings.

What makes him a canon sue? Is it because he's so prefect? Well according to Ichigo he's handsome, smart, and athletic. Also the entire girl population at Ichigo's school is crazy over this guy. So does that makes him a canon sue?

Well, no it doesn't. Ichigo introduces us the guy to us and the viewer/reader can clearly tell (or should be able to) that Aoyama is prefect in her eyes. He's her dream guy so of course he's prefect! Apparently the rest of the girls at Ichigo's school probably feel the same way.

Also he does really act prefect to other human beings. If you remember from the manga (I think the anime mentions this) Aoyama only pretended to act like everyone's dream guy so he could survive living in the human world. Remember he's the host for Deep Blue. In the manga he stated he hated humans until Ichigo came along. I view that as a flaw.


Let's move on to Berri. So she's the new mew in the sequel. She gets injected with two strains of animal DNA and she becomes the new leader of team because Ichigo is in London. She's super strong and basically somewhat of a Ichigo clone.

So I get why people view her as a canon sue, but is she really? No not really. Berri has some problems as well. For one thing she misses her mom and has to deal with growing up without one. She also makes a mistake by picking a school only because the uniforms are cute and turns out the school is really tough.

I feel like she would be less canon sueish if she became a mew mew in a different way and if she didn't take over as a leader.

So what do you guys think? Are these characters really canon sues?
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:00 pm

This is indeed a debatable subject.

I can't comment on Berri, since I haven't read the sequel yet (though I have it on my list), but I can comment on Masaya since I've read both the manga and seen the anime.

With Masaya, I will agree that with his presentation, it is through Ichigo's eyes. But the fact that he does have the entire school population after him is a little odd, I will admit. He may be a Stepford Smiler, yes, but his guise of perfection lasts almost the entire anime and manga both. It's understandable that people would grow bored with him.

It's only after his flaw is revealed that he finally takes on a third dimension, because prior to that, he acts like a saint. But the neither the anime or manga expand on that flaw - it's only mentioned in passing.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Thu Jul 05, 2012 10:14 pm

A lot of things are mentioned in a passing. XD

I always thought it was weird that every girl in Ichigo's school liked him expect for Ichigo's friend Moe and Miwa. But that's anime for you. :D



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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:20 am

XD, true enough. But it wouldn't hurt for them to be expanded upon.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:26 pm

It would of been nice if they expanded upon Aoyama's perfectness. You can have a character and make them seem prefect and have them not be a canon/mary sue. It's possible.



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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:12 pm

I would call them canon sues because of presentation rather than character concept. Their flaws needed to be developed more, but they weren't. Thinking that they would be better characters with more development (I agree with this by the way) does not change that they are canon sues by the given definition. However, the characters themselves no longer bother me like they did when the series was newer. What annoys me is that they were so poorly written, and the anime didn't even try to flesh out Aoyama like it fleshed out other characters.

Aoyama's flaw was mentioned but there was never any indication of that flaw before or after it was mentioned. A good presentation of his character would have him slip up in his perfection or show a little bit of dislike towards some of the fangirls who probably annoy him with their constant obsession. If anything, that would make it seem less out of the blue after his character being presented as perfect for so long beforehand.

I also have a problem with the fact that acting perfect to survive and not really liking other humans was Aoyama's only flaw. Characters need to have a set of flaws that can affect their actions in certain situations. I just didn't see that with Aoyama, and it really is too bad that he was so disliked because of his lack of development.

As for Berri, she does not fit under the category of canon sue by the definition given. If anything, she's what I would call a situational sue (which is my own classification). Every fandom has some character type they would consider a sue, no matter how well-written a character is. For example, the Cardcaptor Sakura fandom would view any new card collector as a sue. Similarly, the TMM fandom views any new mew mew or team of mew mews to be sues. This is probably close to normal mary sue definition but feels slightly different to me.

For Berri, her entire situation set her up to be considered a sue. It's not fair to her character, given Ichigo would be the sue if Berri had come first and then Ichigo took over. Any female character who is put into the role of "new leader of the mews" who wasn't part of the original team is pushing a boulder up a mountain when trying to not be considered a sue.

I can't really remember much of A la Mode, but I feel like her being leader of the mews and her having two types of DNA were the only real problems with her character. Adding her as a team mate (rather than the leader) and giving her just one type of DNA (probably the bunny's for variety's sake) would have been a lot better. She would still be called a sue by a portion of the fandom, but her two biggest marks of a TMM sue would be gone. Even though being a new team member is still typical of TMM sues, the canon could have developed it enough for it to be accepted.

That being said, I don't hate the characters for these problems. I just wish they were better written.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:18 pm

Nice out look, Miakami. ^^ so your term situational sue can you explain more about it? I have never hear you use that term before.



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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:26 pm

Probably because I never really put the term to my thoughts until I needed to explain. XD

Well, I basically view it as a character type and or situation a perfectly normal character would be in. I also feel like this is judged by the fandom rather than any other factor. Like I said with Berri, her situation/character type (new leader of the mews) was something the fandom identifies as a sue. This is probably because of all the fanfics with mary sues that are placed into this role. The fandom stigmatizes any character that fits this definition. Berri could have been the best written character in the world and would probably still fall under the fandom's consideration of a sue because of her situation.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 3:37 pm

poor Berri. :( She could have been a good character.




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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:25 pm

Aoyama as a Gary Stu makes me laugh everytime, honestly.

Flawlessness, perfection IS Masaya's flaw.

Masaya Aoyama has lived with MEW AQUA in his body as the final shows us. Of course he was loved. Of course he was gifted. There was Mew Aqua inside of him all the time, he had no choice but to be these things and those around him probably hadn't either.
Masaya never lived a a life for himself. Perfection from the Mew Aqua, a hatred for environmental polution and humans from Deep Blue... He is a perfect hybrid of the two forces, mostly not even living as a real human being because of that.
He adopted so much of Deep Blue's outlook on the world, it's not even funny anymore.

Masaya is a closed-off, pretending doll during most the canon. Living up to expectations, let them be from the outside of his own inside.

I'm having a hard time seeing such a pale character, such a ... creation.... as perfect.

Masaya never meant all those smiles he gave. Masaya's only goal was to survive and I think he was essentially turning into a variation of Deep Blue, personalitywise. They are similar.
Only during the main plot Aoyama even discovered more of himself.
...look at how he grips Ichigo's hand too tightly in the manga all the time. It's something unknown to him. He's nervous.

If such a lost soul is a Gary Stu then I honestly don't really know anymore, but yeah... definitions of the term are weird anyway.

And Berry... Berry is actually a great character. We might not get her psyche described in detail, but that is what makes her interesting. Thinking a bit deeper she makes a lot of sense.
Berry is not in the nearest bit perfect, only her two genes are sue-ish.
Berry is clumsy. Berry has a huge problem with relationship building due to the early death of her mother. Berry has a tendency to be socially awkward... Berry is a terrible liar and naive.
Personalitywise I see more flaws than positive features, honestly.

It's just that her set-up with the two genes and being the new leader was pretty awkward and fanficiton-sue-ish.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:36 pm

You make great points as well! I never viewed Berri being clumsy then again I have only read a la mode once. I do remember her being naive seeing how she picked a school for its uniform and not realizing it's a tough school.



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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:41 pm

I must say Apfelblüte, I love your interpretation of Aoyama's character. Viewed in that sense, yes, perfection is a flaw. The problem I'm still having is it wasn't presented well enough for me. Maybe it was too subtle for my obliviousness to pick up on after he told Ichigo about it, but before that there was still no real indication such a flaw existed. I would have probably liked his character a lot more on my initial read through and viewing of the series if it had been portrayed as well as you can describe it.
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 7:45 pm

Berry kind of trips and falls all the time XD Stairs, cakes, this and that...

Haha, maybe I invested too much time thinking about Masaya. I just really enjoy this subtle characterization in series, it seems so much deeper to me than the one you obviously get to see, but that is a personal preference.

Oh and I forgot something: Masaya's a manipulative ironic little thing. At least in volume 1.
Knowing his story it's kind of hard to believe he never knew Ichigo had a crush on him right? And it is stated he only fell for her after she got the genes (only because she's a cat? lmao) so at their first date he felt nothing... Yet he kept getting her hopes up and then saying the silliest things. I seriously believe he did it on purpose, because he didn't like the shallow fangirls always bothering him. He's in no way as naive as Ichigo thought he was back then...
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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:04 pm

You know recently I have been flipping through the manga. I need to reread it. >.< Anyway during Aoyama and Ichigo's date at the zoo I did actually noticed him hurting her hand when he was trying to hold it. Before I have never picked up on it and now when I reread the manga I'm going to over analyze it to death. XD



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PostSubject: Re: Debate: Is Berri and Aoyama really mary sues?   Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:07 pm

Yes, but the zoo was after she fell from the balcony, which is stated as the key scene for him to fall for her.
In the museum he behaved very interesting to say the least...

Haha, yes, I never picked up at it at first, but this is what I get for rereading Tokyo Mew Mew around 50 times. I still discover new things, despite having read it analyzing panel by panel mutilple times already XD

I didn't see all those things about Masaya at first at all, but now that I do he makes just so much sense XD
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